Curse

Kaon · Oct 07, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I'm pretty sure that the "it's not overpowered because it's interruptable" argument is ridiculous. Especially considering 1 and 3/4 second casts.

Kaon · Oct 07, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Kaon your monk(s) are terrible if you allow 2/3 snares to get covered before removing them.

Eh... What? The snare pops on, then 1,3 seconds later comes the cover, even quicker with a fastcast. You need to be very spot onwith your hex removal if you want to get it in before the cover. That being said our monk is indeed terrible because we don't have a standard monk and mostly roll for it.

Bobby2 · Oct 07, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by luminoth

Also, enchant removals (strip/rend) rape water eles, as you can remove all enchantments every 20 seconds.

Meh. MoI bars are cheap, Glowing Ice does impressive stuff.

lutz · Oct 08, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I'm pretty sure that the "it's not overpowered because it's interruptable" argument is ridiculous. Especially considering 1 and 3/4 second casts.

If you don't want to interrupt them, choose another option. I gave you five.

Interrupting ONE TWO SECOND CAST out of THREE POSSIBLE CASTS is just a choice you have.

It's not the only way to stop it, it's merely one of the ways to stop it.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 08, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Eh... What? The snare pops on, then 1,3 seconds later comes the cover, even quicker with a fastcast. You need to be very spot onwith your hex removal if you want to get it in before the cover. That being said our monk is indeed terrible because we don't have a standard monk and mostly roll for it.

1-3 seconds later? .75c aftercast +.75c (only winter's Embrace) is still only 1.5s, even a HCT won't bring it under 1s and well covering with Winter's Embrace would actually go against your specific situation anyway as it is one of the 3 snares that's impossible to be removed apparently.

Factor in Holy Veil and HCT becomes a non issue as a DCT'd HC will still be normal cast time and if you wait >.75s before pulling it a chained cover hex will take twice as long to cast too (actually preveiling and using other hex removal first makes this even more effective, you'd know this if you weren't so set in the byob s.o.m..

The fact is water snares are very managable giving enough interrupts/removal and Rend/Strip does hurt (at least the damage output of) MoI eles significantly, that being said I do still think they're too effective/strong and require minor (in the case of Freezing Gust) and some more major (in the case of Winter's Embrace and MoI) hits.

You really have to stop relating everything to byob though, byob always had trouble pushing flags against any kind of 'stand team' with snares.

Conclusion:
Yes water snares are a bit too powerful and MoI is dumb and gives water eles way too much spike power.

And Kaon stop crying about things that beat byob, it hasn't been this strong in a very very long time.

luminoth · Oct 08, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

I don't think nerfing Freezing Gust is the way to go. If you remove Winter's Embrace or MoI from the game, Fgust is really needed. As I said before, you have to think before using this skill, as Shard Storm is hardly a reliable snare.

Also, if mesmers ever come back in the game (I guess if you nerf the dual para spike, they will see play again), the MoI ele won't be strong as it is now, because it's very prone to interrupts.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 08, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

FGust definitely doesn't need a very big nerf, adding 1-2 seconds to the recharge would go a long way.

Dom mesmers can shut them down quite well, I don't disagree (although I do think it takes a little more than nerfing paragons to bring them back) but PBlock aside a decent water ele shouldn't have a problem dealing with it.

gremlin · Oct 08, 2009, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

If only mesmers were viable..

Would you care to expand on that thought ?

The problem is someone complaining that a sequence of skills is giving them a boo boo and preventing them winning.

I suggest the solution might be a character class that is designed to prevent such a situation.

Divinus Stella · Oct 08, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

In a co-ordinated GvG water eles are fine but when you spend all game randomly running about the map without any disruption in your build then I supose they are imbalanced, but should GvG balance really be based around BYOB?

This reminds me of the argument about monk stances being imba because they prevent you insta-gibbing them with a sin.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 08, 2009, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Would you care to expand on that thought ?

Running a (non-VoR) dom mesmer means your build is inferior to the builds most people run and as such you will lose most matches vs guilds of similar capabilities.

Damage and defense are simply much better than shutdown right now (and especially defense has been for a while).

luminoth · Oct 08, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Running a (non-VoR) dom mesmer means your build is inferior to the builds most people run and as such you will lose most matches vs guilds of similar capabilities.

Damage and defense are simply much better than shutdown right now (and especially defense has been for a while).

I don't agree with you there, Mitch. You definately have a good chance of winning against anything with a balanced build with a mesmer, apart from dual para spike (if you're on a non-split map at least).

You need a decent mesmer for that though, not mesmers who pblock 2 second cast signets. Too bad there are hardly any decent mesmers left in the game though.

scruffy · Oct 08, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

winters embrace is a good skill but it isn't over powered, it just makes the water ele a little better 8v8

do not nerf plz this skill is so awesome because it is one of the few viable skills that actually takes good timing to use effectively because of the short duration/unmaintainable

if youre going to nerf water magic, change the recharge on freezing gust to 10 seconds and change mirror of ice to make your snares knock down for 2 seconds or something like that, rather than do damage.

luminoth · Oct 08, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

winters embrace is a good skill but it isn't over powered, it just makes the water ele a little better 8v8

do not nerf plz this skill is so awesome because it is one of the few viable skills that actually takes good timing to use effectively because of the short duration/unmaintainable

if youre going to nerf water magic, change the recharge on freezing gust to 10 seconds and change mirror of ice to make your snares knock down for 2 seconds or something like that, rather than do damage.

Yes, because having the ability to KD from a range without any consequences is a good idea! Might as well make Gale 5 energy and not cause exhaustion.

They should nerf Winter's Embrace, as it gives so many advantages. You can snare, even if it has a water hex, costs only 5e and has a 3/4th casting time. The only 'drawback' is, that it isn't maintainable. But hardly any water snare is maintainable (only Freezing Gust and Frozen Burst are) and these snares have bigger drawbacks than Winter's Embrace. Therefor, this skill needs atleast a 1 second casting time and cost 10 energy.

scruffy · Oct 08, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

nah its good as it is bro, the consequence of the knockdown would be you had to use a water magic snare and the skill is elite so your comparison to a 5 energy gale is pretty dum

i dont even really care what they change it to anyways im just pointing out that MoI is either going to do a lot of damage and be over powered, or do not enough damage and nobody will use it so you might as well change the whole skill to something interesting

deluxe · Oct 08, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

In a co-ordinated GvG water eles are fine but when you spend all game randomly running about the map without any disruption in your build then I supose they are imbalanced, but should GvG balance really be based around BYOB?

This reminds me of the argument about monk stances being imba because they prevent you insta-gibbing them with a sin.

If you think behind the "oh they play byob so they have their own agenda", you have to admit MoI eles and also the balance stance you bring up are overpowered.
And yes, there are a lot of OP templates we use that are probably going to get nerfed.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 08, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by luminoth

I don't agree with you there, Mitch. You definately have a good chance of winning against anything with a balanced build with a mesmer, apart from dual para spike (if you're on a non-split map at least).

You'll lose to a split build on a split friendly map and you'll lose to hexes a good amount of the time as well, the only thing you'll consistently beat is dual ele spike builds (which are kinda rare) and other balanced builds (provided you're better).

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

winters embrace is a good skill but it isn't over powered, it just makes the water ele a little better 8v8

do not nerf plz this skill is so awesome because it is one of the few viable skills that actually takes good timing to use effectively because of the short duration/unmaintainable

if youre going to nerf water magic, change the recharge on freezing gust to 10 seconds and change mirror of ice to make your snares knock down for 2 seconds or something like that, rather than do damage.

You're an idiot, Winter's Embrace doesn't require careful timing it's something that you can spam on recharge due to it's cost and casting time and the fact that you have 1-2 other snares on your bar.

Freezing Gust at 6-7r sounds more like the skill you were describing.

Your suggestion for MoI just destroys whatever credibility you might have had left.

Reverend Dr · Oct 08, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Mostly MoI is just a confounded bar. Because MoI is so strong, the character can put three snares on the bar without giving up any damage. While freezing itself has needed a touch for a while, a hit to MoI will almost certainly see the bar getting moved back from three snares. I really don't have a problem when a character brings three separate snares, being able to actually snare someone; the problem is that this bar can bring the three snares and still keep up a very strong spike assist.

Of course I imagine that if Mirror gets hit that we'd revert back to the me/e glyph immolate/steam bullshit we had before.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 08, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Yay fastcasting!

Reverend Dr · Oct 08, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I love when problems aren't addressed because something more powerful enters play.

ajsnuker · Oct 09, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

OMG...dont nerf again.... they already nerfed td MoI to ruin kappa spike. Remember that? i would like to see MoI remain a viable meta build. IMO its not that bad now... but i have to agree it was VERY overpowered when you had the MoI bar on an FC mesmer.